Posts Tagged ‘NASA’

Ion Propulsion

March 9, 2013

Improved designs in ion engines may be the ticket for making trips to the outer solar system quicker and more feasible both for unmanned probes and (I hope) manned spacecraft. I haven’t been keeping up with space exploration as much as I used to, so I am glad to find this article in Gizmag which explains a little about ion engines and how scientists have been making them better.

The phrase “engage the ion drive” still has the ring of a line from Star Wars, but these engines have been used in space missions for more than four decades and remain the subject of ongoing research. Ion engines have incredible fuel efficiency, but their low thrust requires very long operating times … and therein lies the rub. To date, erosion within such an engine seriously limits its operational lifetime. Now a group of researchers at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) has developed a new design that largely eliminates this erosion, opening the gates for higher thrust and more efficient drives for manned and unmanned missions to the reaches of the Solar System.

There are many varieties and more proposals (the VASMIR engine comes to mind), but the operating principle is quite simple. There are two basic styles of ion engines, electrostatic and electromagnetic.

An electrostatic ion engine works by ionizing a fuel (often xenon or argon gas) by knocking off an electron to make a positive ion. The positive ions then diffuse into a region between two charged grids that contain an electrostatic field. This accelerates the positive ions out of the engine and away from the spacecraft, thereby generating thrust. Finally, an neutralizer sprays electrons into the exhaust plume at a rate that keeps the spacecraft electrically neutral.

An electromagnetic ion engine also works by ionizing a fuel. In this case a plasma is created that carries current between the ionizing anode and a cathode. The current in turn generates a magnetic field at right angles to the electric field, and thereby accelerates the positive ions out of the engine via the Lorentz force – basically the same effect on which railguns are based. Again a neutralizer keeps the spacecraft electrically neutral.

There are many varieties and more proposals (the VASMIR engine comes to mind), but the operating principle is quite simple. There are two basic styles of ion engines, electrostatic and electromagnetic.

 

There is a lot more in the article.

Even Scotty would be impressed by this.

Though, what we really need is warp drive. Anyone doing research on that?

 

Mars Time

August 21, 2012

 

 

The Martian day, called a “sol” is 24 hours and 39 minutes, making it 39 minutes longer than an Earth day. In order to properly monitor a Mars rover‘s mission, many of the scientists and engineers involved switch to Mars time, at least for the first three months. A forty minute longer day may not seem like much of an adjustment, but that daily forty minutes adds up and before too long you are out of sync with Earth’s day and night. Here is the story from AP about a whole family that is trying the adjustment out.

Since the landing of NASA’s newest Mars rover, flight director David Oh’s family has taken the unusual step of tagging along as he leaves Earth time behind and syncs his body clock with the red planet.

Every mission to Mars, a small army of scientists and engineers reports to duty on “Mars time” for the first three months. But it’s almost unheard of for an entire family to flip their orderly lives upside down, shifting to what amounts to a time zone change a day.

Intrigued about abiding by extraterrestrial time, Oh’s wife, Bryn, could not pass up the chance to take their kids – 13-year-old Braden, 10-year-old Ashlyn and 8-year-old Devyn – on a Martian adventure from their home near the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory where the Curiosity rover was built.

“We all feel a little sleepy, a little jet-lagged all day long, but everyone is doing great,” Bryn Oh said, two weeks into the experiment.

Days on Mars last a tad longer. Earth rotates on its axis once every 24 hours – the definition of a day. Neighbor Mars spins more lazily. Days there – known as sols – last 39 minutes and 35 seconds longer than on Earth. The difference may not seem like much each day, but it adds up.

To stay in lockstep, nearly 800 people on the $2.5 billion project have surrendered to the Martian cycle of light and dark. In the simplest sense, each day slides forward 40 minutes. That results in wacky work, sleep and eating schedules. Many say it feels like perpetual jet lag.

The Oh family broke in slowly. A sign on their front door warns: “On Mars Time: Flight Director Asleep. Come Back Later.”

Days before Curiosity’s Aug. 5 touchdown, the children stayed up until 11:30 p.m. and slept in until 10 a.m. In the beginning, it wasn’t much different from a typical day on summer vacation. As the days wore on, they stayed up later and later, waking up in the afternoon and evening.

One day last week, the family ate a 3 p.m. breakfast, 8 p.m. lunch, 2:30 a.m. dinner and 5 a.m. dessert before heading off to bed.

To sleep when the sun is out, their bedroom windows are covered with aluminum foil or cloth to keep out any sliver of light. In the hallway, a handmade calendar keeps track of the days and schedules are written on an oversized mirror. A digital clock in the master bedroom is set to Mars time.

The article goes on about the various troubles the family has in essentially rotating their day and nights forward about a time zone every day. I wonder what effect the slightly longer Martian day might have on any colonists. They wouldn’t have the trouble of having to contend with Earthly time cues, such as sunrise and sunset, or with human activities, which on Mars would be in accord with the Martian day. I don’t think the extra forty minutes would be too hard to adjust to, if everyone in the colony were on the same time.

They would have to do something about their clocks. Would they divided a Martian day into 24 slightly longer Martian hours? What about minutes and seconds? The Martian year is about 687 Earth days. Would Martian colonists measure time by Earth years or Mars years? If I lived on Mars, would I be able to get away with saying I am 20 (Martian) years old?

It will be interesting to see how they figure these sorts of things out. I hope I live to see a colony on Mars.

 

 

Mars Science Laboratory On its Way

December 1, 2011

To keep from being too depressed by the news, I’ll post something positive. The Mars Science Laboratory launched November 26. This probe includes a rover named Curiosity. Here is the news from NASA.

NASA began a historic voyage to Mars with the Nov. 26 launch of the Mars Science Laboratory, which carries a car-sized rover named Curiosity. Liftoff from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station aboard an Atlas V rocket occurred at 10:02 a.m. EST (7:02 a.m. PST).

“We are very excited about sending the world’s most advanced scientific laboratory to Mars,” NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. “MSL will tell us critical things we need to know about Mars, and while it advances science, we’ll be working on the capabilities for a human mission to the Red Planet and to other destinations where we’ve never been.”

The mission will pioneer precision landing technology and a sky-crane touchdown to place Curiosity near the foot of a mountain inside Gale Crater on Aug. 6, 2012. During a nearly two-year prime mission after landing, the rover will investigate whether the region has ever offered conditions favorable for microbial life, including the chemical ingredients for life.

Curiosity’s ambitious science goals are among the mission’s many differences from earlier Mars rovers. It will use a drill and scoop at the end of its robotic arm to gather soil and powdered samples of rock interiors, then sieve and parcel out these samples into analytical laboratory instruments inside the rover. Curiosity carries 10 science instruments with a total mass 15 times as large as the science-instrument payloads on the Mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity. Some of the tools are the first of their kind on Mars, such as a laser-firing instrument for checking the elemental composition of rocks from a distance, and an X-ray diffraction instrument for definitive identification of minerals in powdered samples.

To haul and wield its science payload, Curiosity is twice as long and five times as heavy as Spirit or Opportunity. Because of its one-ton mass, Curiosity is too heavy to employ airbags to cushion its landing as previous Mars rovers could. Part of the Mars Science Laboratory spacecraft is a rocket-powered descent stage that will lower the rover on tethers as the rocket engines control the speed of descent.

The mission’s landing site offers Curiosity access for driving to layers of the mountain inside Gale Crater. Observations from orbit have identified clay and sulfate minerals in the lower layers, indicating a wet history.

I can hardly wait for the Mars Science Laboratory to reach Mars. Here, on NASA’s website is a countdown to its landing.

 

Interstellar Travel

October 4, 2011

It has been forty years since man has walked on the moon and it is about time we head out into space again. Some say we should go back to the moon, and maybe set up bases. Others believe a trip to Mars is due. But traveling within our solar system is for stay-at-homes and wimps. We need to go to the stars.

Luckily for us DARPA, the same people who gave us the Internet, are already studying the matter. According to this article in Popular Mechanics, they have organized the 100 year Starship symposium to explore ways to reach the stars. This is no easy matter, of course. The 100 years refers to the amount of time they expect it will take to surmount the difficulties.

The problem of building a starship is so difficult that DARPA’s Tactical Technology Office director and manager for the project, David Neyland, figures it will take 100 years just to learn how to pull it off, hence the project’s name. But while traveling to the stars is a far-off goal, Neyland says that just working on the problem will allow the Department of Defense (of which DARPA is a part) to reap very practical benefits now. “We literally send millions—millions—of MREs, little packaged foodstuffs, to our troops in the field overseas. Is there a better way? Well, if you solve the problem for long-duration, long-distance spaceflight for food supplies, what could you do in terms of the Department of Defense for forward-operating locations?” Solving the problem of energy production on a starship that will have to remain powered up for a decades-long journey could similarly produce major benefits for the military.

Here’s a preview of the enormous problems facing the DARPA conference attendees who dream of interstellar travel. We’ll keep you updated on the wild proposals they come up with to overcome these challenges.

To start with, our rocket technology of the present doesn’t even begin to be effective in traveling such great distances.

It starts with propulsion—simply figuring out how to travel interstellar distances. Chemical rockets, the kind that got us to the moon, just won’t get us to the stars. “You need more fuel than exists mass in the known universe,” says physicist Richard Obousy, president of Icarus Interstellar. Alternatives such as nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, and even antimatter propulsion systems will be on the table here.

 

And of course, there is the difficulty of keeping the crew supplied and motivated for a journey which may take decades or centuries. Any starship we send out will have to be completely self-sufficient. If they break down, no one will be able to rescue them.

I am a little disappointed that star travel is not likely to occur in my lifetime. Perhaps, I should look into cryogenics, have my corpse frozen for later revival.

 

 

 

 

The Mountains of Vesta

October 4, 2011

Well, just one mountain really, but it’s a big one. Here is something interesting from space.com.

A NASA spacecraft orbiting the asteroid Vesta is revealing new details about the huge space rock’s surface, including a massive mountain that rises taller than Mt. Everest on Earth.

NASA’s Dawn probe has been circling Vesta since mid-July, when it arrived in the asteroid belt that orbits the sun between Mars and Jupiter. So far, Dawn has beamed back surprising views of Vesta that revealed an enormous mountain in the asteroid’s southern hemisphere and show that its crater surface is incredibly diverse place.

“We are learning many amazing things about Vesta, which we call the smallest terrestrial planet,” Chris Russell, principal investigator of the Dawn mission, said in a statement. “Like Earth, Mars, Venus and Mercury, Vesta has ancient basaltic lava flows on the surface and a large iron core … The south polar mountain is larger than the big island of Hawaii, the largest mountain on Earth, as measured from the ocean floor. It is almost as high as the highest mountain in the solar system, the shield volcano Olympus Mons on Mars.”

Vesta’s giant southern mountain is nearly as tall as Olympus Mons, the largest mountain (and volcano) in the solar system, which soars about 15 miles (24 kilometers) above the surface. On Earth, the largest terrestrial volcano is Mauna Loa in Hawaii, which rises up 6 miles (9 km) high, including the portion of the volcano that extends underwater to the sea floor. Mount Everest, the tallest mountain above sea level on Earth, is a paltry 5.5 miles (8.85 km) tall. [Latest Photos of Asteroid Vesta]

Dawn also revealed that Vesta’s surface appears to be much rougher than most asteroids in the main asteroid belt, which is a vast region full of space rocks between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter.

Additionally, preliminary estimates of crater age dates on Vesta suggest that regions in the southern hemisphere are far younger than in the north — with some areas in the southern hemisphere only about 1 to 2 billion years old.

The findings were presented today at the 2011 European Planetary Science Congress and the Division for Planetary Sciences Joint Meeting in Nantes, France.

Vesta is actually the second (or maybe third) largest asteroid in the asteroid belt, behind Ceres. Evidently it is large enough for gravity to have compacted it into a sphere but is still a little rough. It has a differentiated interior.

Vesta and some other asteroids

 

They hope to map Vesta and get an idea of the asteroid’s age.

Researchers also said that the difference in the number of craters in the northern hemisphere compared to the southern hemisphere is also striking. The relative ages of the craters and regions can be roughly calculated by counting the number of craters per unit area in the different terrains.

Early estimates show that areas in the south may be much younger than in the north. The oldest ages that have been found in the south so far are younger than 4 billion years old, which was surprising to the researchers since meteorites from Vesta were calculated to be about 4 billion years old.

But, the ages of Vesta’s craters should become more precise as Dawn continues its yearlong mapping mission, the scientists said.

“The variation in Vesta’s brightness as the sun angle changes indicates that the surface of Vesta is very rough, causing light to scatter,” Raymond said in a statement. “This roughness could be at the scales of surface features or at the scale of individual minerals in the rocks, or both. Vesta’s roughness is larger than most asteroids in the main asteroid belt.”

NASA’s Dawn probe has only just begin its mission to map Vesta, and should continue to study the asteroid through mid-2012 before continuing on to its next target: Ceres. Dawn is expected to arrive at Ceres in February 2015.

I’m looking forward to some pictures of Ceres close up.

Here is a photo tour of the whole solar system, with lots of good pictures.

If you like that sort of thing than go over to astronomy picture of the day.

Vesta Full-Frame Image
NASA’s Dawn spacecraft obtained this image of the giant asteroid Vesta with its framing camera on July 24, 2011. It was taken from a distance of about 3,200 miles (5,200 kilometers). Dawn entered orbit around Vesta on July 15, and will spend a year orbiting the body. After that, the next stop on its itinerary will be an encounter with the dwarf planet Ceres.
CREDIT: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

A NASA spacecraft orbiting the asteroid Vesta is revealing new details about the huge space rock’s surface, including a massive mountain that rises taller than Mt. Everest on Earth.

NASA’s Dawn probe has been circling Vesta since mid-July, when it arrived in the asteroid belt that orbits the sun between Mars and Jupiter. So far, Dawn has beamed back surprising views of Vesta that revealed an enormous mountain in the asteroid’s southern hemisphere and show that its crater surface is incredibly diverse place.

“We are learning many amazing things about Vesta, which we call the smallest terrestrial planet,” Chris Russell, principal investigator of the Dawn mission, said in a statement. “Like Earth, Mars, Venus and Mercury, Vesta has ancient basaltic lava flows on the surface and a large iron core … The south polar mountain is larger than the big island of Hawaii, the largest mountain on Earth, as measured from the ocean floor. It is almost as high as the highest mountain in the solar system, the shield volcano Olympus Mons on Mars.”

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Vesta’s giant southern mountain is nearly as tall as Olympus Mons, the largest mountain (and volcano) in the solar system, which soars about 15 miles (24 kilometers) above the surface. On Earth, the largest terrestrial volcano is Mauna Loa in Hawaii, which rises up 6 miles (9 km) high, including the portion of the volcano that extends underwater to the sea floor. Mount Everest, the tallest mountain above sea level on Earth, is a paltry 5.5 miles (8.85 km) tall. [Latest Photos of Asteroid Vesta]

Dawn also revealed that Vesta’s surface appears to be much rougher than most asteroids in the main asteroid belt, which is a vast region full of space rocks between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter.

Additionally, preliminary estimates of crater age dates on Vesta suggest that regions in the southern hemisphere are far younger than in the north — with some areas in the southern hemisphere only about 1 to 2 billion years old.

The findings were presented today at the 2011 European Planetary Science Congress and the Division for Planetary Sciences Joint Meeting in Nantes, France.

Dawn at Vesta

The $466 million Dawn spacecraft entered orbit around Vesta on July 15, beginning a yearlong mission to orbit and study the asteroid. After a year of studying Vesta, the Dawn probe is expected to head off to explore Ceres, the largest asteroid in the solar system.

Vesta, which measures about 330 miles (530 kilometers) across, is the second-largest object in the main asteroid belt and is the brightest asteroid in our solar system.

The surface of Vesta provides scientists with clues into the space rock’s past. Since July, Dawn has been moving steadily closer to Vesta, transitioning into a polar orbit as it scans the asteroid’s surface. In mid-August, the probe mapped the entire sunlit surface of Vesta in visible and infrared wavelengths.

The spacecraft has since moved into a lower orbit and will spend the coming month mapping the asteroid’s sunlit surface at a different resolution, said Carol Raymond, Dawn’s deputy principal investigator.

Scientists are now closely studying Vesta’s craters, ridges and hills, and hope to have the sunlit surface of the asteroid completely mapped by the end of the year, Russell added.

New Photo Reveals Day & Night on Huge Asteroid Vesta
NASA’s Dawn spacecraft obtained this image with its framing camera on July 18, 2011. It was taken from a distance of about 6,500 miles (10,500 kilometers) away from the protoplanet Vesta.
CREDIT: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

Dawn’s framing camera is equipped with seven color filters that collect spectral information that enable scientists to show surface features in false color maps that would not normally be visible to the naked eye. These false colors are ratios of light intensity at different wavelengths, and are indications of different surface materials.

The spacecraft’s observations showed particularly strong differences in surface composition around craters. [Dark Feature Spotted on Asteroid Vesta ]

“Data from different wavelengths can be combined to investigate different types of materials,” said Maria Cristina de Sanctis, of Italy’s National Institute for Astrophysics, which manages Dawn’s Visible and Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (VIR). “The color variations seen by VIR suggest variability in the surface mineralogy.”

Vesta's South Polar Region
NASA’s Dawn spacecraft took this image of the south polar region of Vesta, which has a diameter of 330 miles (530 kilometers). The image was taken on July 9, 2011, and it has a scale of about 2.2 miles (3.5 km) per pixel. To enhance details, the resolution was enlarged to .6 miles (1 km) per pixel. This region is characterized by rough topography, a large mountain, impact craters, grooves and steep scarps.
CREDIT: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

Calculating ages on Vesta

Researchers also said that the difference in the number of craters in the northern hemisphere compared to the southern hemisphere is also striking. The relative ages of the craters and regions can be roughly calculated by counting the number of craters per unit area in the different terrains.

Early estimates show that areas in the south may be much younger than in the north. The oldest ages that have been found in the south so far are younger than 4 billion years old, which was surprising to the researchers since meteorites from Vesta were calculated to be about 4 billion years old.

But, the ages of Vesta’s craters should become more precise as Dawn continues its yearlong mapping mission, the scientists said.

“The variation in Vesta’s brightness as the sun angle changes indicates that the surface of Vesta is very rough, causing light to scatter,” Raymond said in a statement. “This roughness could be at the scales of surface features or at the scale of individual minerals in the rocks, or both. Vesta’s roughness is larger than most asteroids in the main asteroid belt.”

NASA’s Dawn probe has only just begin its mission to map Vesta, and should continue to study the asteroid through mid-2012 before continuing on to its next target: Ceres. Dawn is expected to arrive at Ceres in February 2015.

Solar Storm Coming

September 27, 2011
Sunspot #923 is the biggest dark spot at the s...

The End ?

From the Daily Mail. This could be bad.

A sunspot, 62,000 miles across – so big it would dwarf the Earth – is releasing gigantic solar flares that could in theory wreak havoc with electrical communications ranging from handheld electronics such as iPhones to sections of the power grid.

Nasa has detected two X-class solar eruptions from 1302 – the most extreme possible – in the past week. One that occurred on September 24 produced an amazing light show over England last night – but it’s far from over, as the sunspot isn’t yet directly aligned with Earth.

NASA experts have said ‘anything electrical’ can be affected by such activity.

Known as ‘Active Region 1302’, it is producing bursts of radiation so intense that spectacular auroras, caused by the sun’s particles hitting the atmosphere, have been seen as far south as Oxfordshire.

Astronomer Dr Ian Griffin, CEO of Science Oxford, told MailOnline: ‘Active Region 1302 is the source of all of the auroras seen yesterday, and may well be the source of some more auroras over the next few nights.

The last really bad solar storm we experienced was way back in 1859.

On September 1–2, 1859, the largest recorded geomagnetic storm occurred. Aurorae were seen around the world, most notably over the Caribbean; also noteworthy were those over the Rocky Mountains that were so bright that their glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[4] According to professor Daniel Baker of the University of Colorado’sLaboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics, “people in the northeastern U.S. could read newspaper print just from the light of the aurora.[5]

Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire. Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.

Just think of the havoc a storm like that could wreak today with all the electronics that we depend upon. This could be the end of civilization.

On the other hand, I’ve never seen the Northern Lights before. It would be really cool to see them as far south as Indiana.

Alien Invasion

August 19, 2011
Paul Krugman, Laureate of the Sveriges Riksban...

He warned us.

Recently, Nobel Prize winning and left-wing loon Paul Krugman suggested that an invasion by aliens would jump start the economy.

In an interview with CNN, Krugman cited “a Twilight Zone episode in which scientists fake an alien threat in order to achieve world peace. Well, this time… we’d need it in order to get some fiscal stimulus.” According to Krugman’s tossed-off theory, we’d need a massive buildup to counter the apparently looming invasion. “[If] inflation and budget deficits took secondary place to that, this slump would be over in 18 months.”

And now we have this

Bad news from NASA: If we don’t reduce carbon emissions, the aliens might come and kill us

It may not rank as the most compelling reason to curb greenhouse gases, but reducing our emissions might just save humanity from a pre-emptive alien attack, scientists claim…

The authors warn that extraterrestrials may be wary of civilisations that expand very rapidly, as these may be prone to destroy other life as they grow, just as humans have pushed species to extinction on Earth. In the most extreme scenario, aliens might choose to destroy humanity to protect other civilisations.

“A preemptive strike would be particularly likely in the early phases of our expansion because a civilisation may become increasingly difficult to destroy as it continues to expand. Humanity may just now be entering the period in which its rapid civilisational expansion could be detected by an ETI because our expansion is changing the composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, via greenhouse gas emissions,” the report states.

“Green” aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have caused on Earth and wipe us out to save the planet. “These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets,” the authors write.

Is there maybe something the government is not telling us? Should I start checking the basement for pods or building some kind of shelter against heat rays or something?

Thanks to Hot Air and Allahpundit.

 

 

 

 

Apollo Moon Landing

July 20, 2011

It’s a good thing I check Instapundit everyday. I didn’t realize that today was the anniversary of the first moon landing until Glenn Reynolds reminded his readers. He put in a link to Apollo images from NASA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One giant leap.

There were indeed giants in those days. Lesser sons of great sires are we.

An Ice Age?

June 15, 2011

From Hot Air. Apparently more scientists are concerned that a decrease in solar sunspot activity could cause the Earth to grow colder. The last such extended period was the Mauder Minimum, which lasted from about 1645-1715 and coincides with the Little Ice Age.

According to three studies released in the United States on Tuesday, experts believe the familiar sunspot cycle may be shutting down and heading toward a pattern of inactivity unseen since the 17th century.

The signs include a missing jet stream, fading spots, and slower activity near the poles, said experts from the National Solar Observatory and Air Force Research Laboratory.

‘This is highly unusual and unexpected,’ said Frank Hill, associate director of the NSO’s Solar Synoptic Network.

‘But the fact that three completely different views of the Sun point in the same direction is a powerful indicator that the sunspot cycle may be going into hibernation.’

So now we should put all the carbon we can in the air, or maybe not.

Don’t buy your mukluks for Florida just yet.  This is still a hypothesis, not yet an immutable fact.  The NSO and USAFRL still needs to conduct research to see whether a new Maunder Minimum will come, or if this sunspot cycle has just hiccuped. (NASA notes in a sentence that The Register didn’t include that “The connection between solar activity and terrestrial climate is an area of on-going research.”)  That will take at least a couple of years to see what direction solar activity takes and what its impact on global temperatures might be, so no one should rush into policy “solutions” for climate in either direction.  Of course, this is also good advice for AGW hysterics who have been predicting the end of the world in the other direction for 20 years, and whose predictions have so far all failed to materialize.

Of course, if those AGW advocates suddenly convert to Maunder Minimists, why do I have the sneaking suspicion that the same solutions — central control of energy production and usage, elimination of fossil fuels — will be pushed?

I’m sure they any solution they come up with will involve them telling us how to live.


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